Briggs 5 HP Sidecover- unable to remove!

[creia]

1972 Briggs 5 HP Horizontal shaft
M- 130292
T- 0371-01
C- 7203107
This is the model with the extra ("auxillary") driveshaft that probably came off of a tiller. It is a complete engine and all of the tins, carb, and tank are in good shape. I mainly purchased it for parts as it is non-running and REAL hard to turn over (Maybe it had seized?) I want to inspect the internals and for the life of me I cannot get the sidecover to separate from the block more than 1/4". Over the years I've had some that were tough, however, i was always able to eventually get them off.I have tried using a lever/pry bar and driving in wood wedges while I am hitting on the fill plug castings with a rubber hammer. Does anybody have any suggestions? If I have to, and as a last resort, I suppose I could bust or cut the sidecover off (Dremel tool with a cut off wheel) as I will not use the dual shaft sidecover. If I do use the block I'll convert it back to a single shaft engine by replacing the sidecover and cam with those used on a Model 130202 engine.
Thanks for any help.
Miichael

[bgsengine]

pop the oil seals out and look for ridge of rust (try and peel the case gasket out and then overtorque the cover bolts a tiny bit then whack flywheel end of shaft with mallet to pop the shaft out a tiny bit further) any rust or carbon ridges can build up under the oil seals as well - ANY imperfections on the shafts will hang up on those sleeve bearings (not to mention, if it is hard to roll over, you may have galling of the aluminum on the crank or cam shafts in the bearing areas, which may have cut little grooves in the bearing areas...) However if you are not concerned at keeping the side cover, then by all means go with the easy way out and cut away the main bearing from side cover - Then cut notches in the bearing journals to split them in half (assuming that is what's keeping them on) rather than trying to force the bearing off the shaft. If it is ball bearing crank, however, some had bearing retainers in the side cover that would mean you have to pull bearing with the cover (and bearing cant stay on the crank) and those were a royal PITA - BUT, I rather doubt it because those were pretty rare (and if I recall they didn't have them on the smaller blocks)

[creia]

Great idea (No surprise considering the source) about removing the oil seals - Thank you!
I did just that, set the engine on its side, flywheel side down with the PTO ends facing up and now have Gibbs Penetrant (I prefer it over PB Blaster) soaking in around the crank ends where they pass through the side cover bearing (bushing). While they were corroded, it did not look THAT bad and I did not see any visible ridge. I'll keep applying the Gibbs as it soaks in, followed by some "tap-taps" to help loosen it up, and try again tomorrow.
Just a thought...
Could those 2 steel "locating/aligning pins" that insert into the block at the 9 and 3 position and fit into the matching bosses in the side cover be causing or contributing to the problem? If they were badly corroded on the ends they may not want to pull out of the side cover completely?
Michael

[bgsengine]

Possible on the pins, if you can't see them moving (I'd assumed you were getting about 1/8" separation or so before it hung up) then yeah you could put some penetrating oil on the ends, and see if you can get them to move one way or another (with cover bolted on) using a drift punch (careful about driving them toward flywheel side, easy to break or split the tabs then fit into) Many of them (but not all, so check first) can be driven out completely from flywheel end out through cover end (but often not back through towards flywheel due to casting) only couple times I have had them be the reason was when someone put the engine together and used loctite stud & bearing mount on the locating pins! the other was an engine that had sat for ages and simply rusted pins in place (both times drove pins through and out the cover side, loctite one caused cover tab to break off, though engine ended up on scrap heap after internal inspection)

[creia]

ANY imperfections on the shafts will hang up on those sleeve bearings (not to mention, if it is hard to roll over, you may have galling of the aluminum on the crank or cam shafts in the bearing areas, which may have cut little grooves in the bearing area)

Brian- You nailed it!
Update and epilogue....
There was no improvement whatsoever after soaking in the Gibbs Penetrant overnight - The side cover would still only come off about 1/4". I ended up using my trusty Dremel tool with a metal cut off wheel and sliced and diced the side cover off, however, the crank bearing journal still held fast around the crank.. Then (as Brian suggested), I cut 2 grooves lengthwise along the bearing journal and split it open to remove it. That had to be the worst galling I have even seen on a crank as well as the crank bearing journal Evidently all of that galling ("Cutting little grooves" as Brian stated) locked these parts together and was the reason it was so hard to turn over. (turns over very easily now).

The BAD News:
The crank is toast
The block (MAY) be toast depending on the condition of the bearing journal on the flywheel side (I am not very hopeful)
The rod may be toast, however, not a big deal as these can still be purchased cheap.

The GOOD news:
1. The bore looks good and (surprisingly)does not measure out of spec.
2 The carb, fuel tank, air cleaner, shroud/recoil and all misc. tins are in very good shape
3. The coil has been upgraded to electronic "Magnetron"
For what I paid for this engine (very little), it is still very much worth it as a parts donor for my other rebuilds.
Michael

[bgsengine]

fairly common for crank journal bearing failure to not even affect the magneto bearing in crankcase - It does not necessarily mean lack of lubrication on a crank journal - It can also be caused by excessive loading on the crank (more than the lubricating oil can handle) as well as water /dirt entry past a failing seal. neither of which would be all that uncommon on some types of rototillers (manually clutched belts adjusted to "monster tight" trying to solve a slippage problem which actually may have been caused by worn out pulley grooves or worn belts or both - that can put a considerable side load on the crank PTO bearing journals, combine that with old (or too thin like 5W20 or some such) oil, you'll quickly have metal to metal galling on the crank PTO journals. So, your chances are pretty good, I think, at saving the block (and if crank is otherwise good, might be worth having a machine shop turn down and press-fit a new PTO bearing on the crank? - Or, turn it down to fit a custom-sized ball bearing with the correct OEM O.D. for a ball bearing crank cover?)

[creia]

Thank you very much for the explanation on how this bearing and crank could have got so destroyed- makes perfect sense.
It is encouraging that MAYBE I MIGHT still have a good usable block - I will know for sure when I eventually remove the flywheel and crank and can inspect.
Michael

[creia]

fairly common for crank journal bearing failure to not even affect the magneto bearing in crankcase - It does not necessarily mean lack of lubrication on a crank journal - It can also be caused by excessive loading on the crank (more than the lubricating oil can handle) as well as water /dirt entry past a failing seal. neither of which would be all that uncommon on some types of rototillers (manually clutched belts adjusted to "monster tight" trying to solve a slippage problem which actually may have been caused by worn out pulley grooves or worn belts or both - that can put a considerable side load on the crank PTO bearing journals, combine that with old (or too thin like 5W20 or some such) oil, you'll quickly have metal to metal galling on the crank PTO journals. So, your chances are pretty good, I think, at saving the block (and if crank is otherwise good, might be worth having a machine shop turn down and press-fit a new PTO bearing on the crank? - Or, turn it down to fit a custom-sized ball bearing with the correct OEM O.D. for a ball bearing crank cover?)

You were correct Brian!!
I just yesterday got around to pulling the crank on this engine and just as you stated might be the case, the magneto side bushing had no damage whatsoever
I am going to use this block for another project I am starting.
Michael

[bgsengine]

You were correct Brian!!
I just yesterday got around to pulling the crank on this engine and just as you stated might be the case, the magneto side bushing had no damage whatsoever
I am going to use this block for another project I am starting.
Michael

Yup, I guess 35 years' worth of experience can still count for something... LOL

[KE4AVB]

Brian, Boy you are getting to be an old man. Just kidding as I am got there too age wise. 63 and counting (or at least I think I can still count on my fingers and toes).