Trash Pump- Doesn't Pump

[Mek-a-nik]

A lot to read, but I appreciate any input.
It's the machine on this thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1499&p=10922&hilit=water+pump#p10922

North Star model 10617. Has a Honda GC160.

A little background: This pump has been used for years at this seaside condo. The condo was built below sea level, so as to be able to add an additional floor. The parking garage is on the bottom floor. The place has an underground ejector pit and pump to pump out rain water. But, it can't keep with a heavy rain, so everytime it rains hard, they set up this pump, with a line into the pit, to help it out. Otherwise, the garage floods.

Anyway, maintenance guy called me the other day and said they just used it for the first time since I repaired it. He says it pulls water out of the ejection pit, and to the pump, but doesn't move it up the hill into the street (about a 6 foot elevation over 50 linear feet). He seemed to think the engine was running slow.

I went over, it's running strong at 3600 rpm. It was as he said. Water to the pump, but the outlet hose of the pump was very soft, you could close it off with your foot. He said it usually is rock hard, and the water flies into the street at the end of the hose. (Inlet and outlet hoses are about 3 inches) I took the pump housing off to inspect, as I had it off when I was working on it before. There isn't much to it. An impeller (rusted) to the crank, and the housing cover. All looks good.

I suggested a restriction in the outlet side or the inlet side, maybe even sucking some air. He said when it stopped raining, he'd check it out and call me. Called me yesterday and said they found a slight obstruction in the outlet hose, but it didn't help.

He hooked up another pump they have and it worked fine, he said.

That's the stumper. He saw the inside of the pump when I pulled the cover the other day. He suggested that the impeller was slipping on the crank. I told him it was rusted solid.

I don't have much experience with this type of pump, but I can't see anything wrong. The other pump he tried is bigger; I wonder if it overcame an obstruction?

[bgsengine]

pump seals - they have a seal behind the impeller, spring loaded slip seal if that is sucking air it'll have problems. sometimes you can lube 'em up with a little water pump grease (Old, old pumps used to have a grease cup with a T-handle plunger threaded into the cap to push grease into the seal - that kind of grease - I still have one we use maybe once every couple or 3 years - a 1-1/2" pump with such a setup..) but , to do that (check or grease or replace seals) you got to pop the impeller off.

they work by centrifugal force much like a common vacuum cleaner - the impeller is a fan of sorts , with little clearance - if you got too much clearance , the water just "swishes" by - maybe need a new impeller, possibly pump housing.. some will have check valves.. dunno about your machine.. didnt even look at parts breakdown for it.

[Luffydog]

i had a pol pump that was eletric that was doing about the same thing as you describe the impeller was slipping and also turning the wrong direction to push water and it needed to do to circulate the pool. they sent me another one which was in warranty and told me to just keep the other with no questions asked i did and broke it down to find the impeller if u held it it would just turn but if you pushed in on it it would turn like it should. missing a spring from the factory that held pressure to engage the impeller but after i got the spring water flowed thur the seals with no luck on it working so all i have is a good motor and a bad impeller that wont push water.

[bgsengine]

BTW for future reference to test how well a pump can work without having a pool to pump out you can prime it (fill pump with water) and get 1 foot section of 2x4x8 or 2x4x6 with a mudflap or piece of rubber fastened to it and block off the suction side with engine running , should load it up and hold the board in place by the suction if it can do that it will probably also have good pressure , which you can test with the same board by blocking off the outlet and pour some water into the inlet - be prepared to get wet... when you remove the board you'll have a nice spray and can feel the pressure blow out (if adding water does not already squirt you good, considering you're holding the board on one-handed)

- have had lots of practice with water pumps after some years working in the fleet shop for a gas field construction company.. (they dug and built drilling ponds and mud pits for drilling platforms, as well as running pipelines.. ) I've probably forgotten half the tricks we'd use to "make them work in a pinch" when they didn't have enough working pumps for a project.

[NO0C]

Check the integrity of the large O-ring between the pump cover and body.

Check the integrity of the smaller O-ring between the volute and pump body.

Check the integrity of the smaller yet O-ring on the body drain plug.

And as mentioned previously, the mechanical seal at the back of the wet end.

Must be pump week. I had to reseal my Goulds GT15 sandpoint well pump that I irrigate the yard with. It ended up being the pipe fitting sucking air at the suction port of the pump and was pumping and then it wasn't. I'm glad I was sitting down here in the basement about 20 feet from the pump and heard the pump change it's pitch. Otherwise it would have burned up the impeller/diffuser bushing surfaces due to lack of lube and cooling from the water. Pulled the pump, put it on the bench opened it up and impeller and diffuser looked just like they did when I replaced them 3 years ago. I did have a spare self priming diaphragm and diffuser to volute seal so I replaced them when I had it apart. Reset the pump and wouldn't prime. Removed and redoped the 3 pipe thread joints and off she went, picked up the prime from the water level that is 4 ft below the basement floor and ran like a gut shot cat then and a couple times since.

Good luck.

[Mek-a-nik]

Wow, great info.
I'm liking the idea of the housing o-ring. It's the only thing I disturbed. I only put some grease on it to help it seal. It never occurred to me (and it should have) that the pump needs to be air tight to pull water. I was only thinking of the pushing aspect. I'll also check the drain o-ring and any others. (Prime cap.)
If there is a seal behind the impeller that needs replacing, the pump is junk. (But I never disturbed it and it would be a long shot that started leaking since the last time they used it.) The impeller is rusted solid. No way to remove it without destroying it. As such, I can't see it slipping. The rust would be disturbed.
It's a simple design. Take the housing off, and all there is, is the impeller, and the back of the pump, which is bolted to the engine. (Bolts behind the impeller.)
I've had no luck finding an IPL, I am considering using silicone to test seal the housing, and finding a standard hardware o-ring.
I'm still curious as to if they have an air leak on the "in" side.
I'll make 2 by's with rubber on them to test. They may not have water in the pit when I get there.

[Luffydog]

I have to prime my pump every so often I guess because seal is leaking and it looses prime. Try priming it to see if it has a vapor lock. Just a thought.

[NO0C]

Does that pump have a check valve in the input line to hold prime? If so that also serves as a gasket. If it's compromised you could have the same suction deficiency at that joint.

How about this one?

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/ ... _200418134

Here's the link to the Owner's Manual:

http://www.northerntool.com/images/down ... 109173.pdf

My system was sucking air at the arrow. The hose clamp is to hold the cracked union nut together as I'm a tight a$$ and if I can make it work with duct tape or nylon ties, I do it. There are a lot of farms here in Husker Nation held together with baling wire.

My axiom: If it doesn't move, WD40 it, if it does, duct tape it.

I haven't bought a drop of irrigation water from the city since 1999. That sandpoint well pays for itself multiple times/year. I have rebuilt the pump once and replaced the point once due to hard water corrosion plugging the holes in the point and pumping some sand that tore up the impeller and diffuser. Total cost ~$150. The mechanical seal is the seal it was built with. I don't usually replace stuff just because it's there. I'm hoping to get another 5 years before I have to pull the point and replace it. A 3' sandpoint, 2 1¼"X5' pipes, 2 drive couplings, a drive cap and a sledge hammer after you get the basement floor drilled/knocked out. A few misc. fittings and some flex PVC from a junked spa and down the road you go. The system is fully automatic running on 240V via a pump relay triggered by the sprinkler system 24VAC pump output circuit. Total distance from breaker panel to motor <5', no voltage drop. Being inside, no pump winterization is needed. I'm lifting water about 5.5' according to the measurement I made the other day to see what the static water level was.

I can water the lawn every day if needed here in the Great American Desert for 4 hours and it won't cost $1.00/day.

I just love our Ogallala aquifer and don't want to be pumping oil/tarsands sludge one of these days. Go away Keystone XL.



Good luck.

[Mek-a-nik]

Not a GX, N0OC, it's a GC160. Guy told me it's pretty old. I only saw pumps with GX's when I searched.
It does have check valve, I'll check its integrity and anything else that could leak.
I'm going over there tomorrow.
I hope they have enough water in the pit to work it hard.

[KE4AVB]

if I can make it work with duct tape or nylon ties, I do it.

Must be kin to one that brought in that push mower with blade duct taped on earlier this year.