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Tec HS40 Engine Internal Component Wear

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Re: Tec HS40 Engine Internal Component Wear

Postby bgsengine » Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:39 pm

creia wrote:
bgsengine wrote:Yeah from those photos now, I would tend to say it is your *exhaust* cam lobe that is worn out, oddly enough - it looks almost re-ground - I cant recall seeing them with such a size disparity - looks like intake cam lobe is much larger - but as you have discovered - it's gonna be expensive in any case, and with luck you may be able to find "NOS" (New Old Stock) parts on ebay or elsewhere - should be able to look up part numbers and then run a number search in google.


Brian,
You are correct (no surprise) about the size disparity of the cam lobes! I've never seen anything like that in any Briggs or Tecumseh engine we have ever worked on. Our research has revealed that this particular cam was a bit of an odd-ball (The lifters are also different lengths). From 1971-on Tecumseh went to a cam with lobes and lifters identical in size in the HS40. A OEM replacement for our 1970 HS40 cam is NLA, however, we have been informed from a reliable source that the 1971-on cam and lifters are a direct fit in our block and THEY are available for not too bad of a price.
If it turns out we definitely need a new cam, that is the route we would likely go.
Michael


AH-HA! That rings a bell now - I do recall those different sized cam lobes - I only wish I happened to have the memory to recall the dimensions - I only vaguely recall (this was back in the mid-1980's ... `85 if i remember right.) rebuilding one of those engines and having to question the camshaft lobe sizes, several measurements trying to figure out how to explain it to tech support (at tecumseh factory - even THEY did not know anything about it until they went (I think) to their engineering dept. - All done over the phone by my boss at the time as we were trying to find replacement lifters for one that broke after being hit by something after throwing the rod.. I seem to recall the lifter options were not shown in parts books..) - It was the one and only of those weird cams I have ever seen .. and your comment about the different lifter sizes was what triggered the memory - but after 30 odd years it's difficult to even remember even roughly the dimensions or much other detail..

I can't recall if we had ever gotten the right parts or if we had replaced cam and lifters as a set (back to "standard" configuration) - but I have a theory that those engines were a very limited production and intended for performance applications - seems to me having a shorter lift, longer duration on the intake would perhaps allow for a different "turbulence" and intake port opening (I cant remember - do they have different sized valves?). theoretically helping improve combustion and air flow (especially if they are built for higher RPM applications)
How poor are they who have not patience. What wound did ever heal, but by degrees? - Iago (Othello Act II, Scene 3)
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Re: Tec HS40 Engine Internal Component Wear

Postby creia » Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:03 pm

KE4AVB wrote:
creia wrote:I realize that many reading this thread think we are absolutely nuts to expend this much time, effort and $$ into this old engine! :o (We probably are!) :oops:

Not I as I have done the same thing on some antique chainsaws for customers. I even did upgrade rebuild of a Poulan 4218AV that cost nearly as much the saw's new price of 129 USD but it was a great learning experience that I have been able to apply to other repair projects. BTW after the upgrade that saw would now cost 189 USD to buy new around here.


KE4AVB,
Thanks for sharing- While many reading our story would think we are crazy (and I do not blame them)I knew that SOME of you would "get it". 8-) My son is committed to seeing this project to completion, which includes rebuilding the worn out OEM Tec HS40 engine. $$$ Also, as you stated - "Learning experience"- Look what THAT is worth and how do you place a price cap on THAT?
We sure do appreciate the help we have received on this forum. :) As some of you may remember from my previous posts (I know that Brian does), my son loves working on the old Briggs and Tecumseh flatheads. Almost ever engine he has ever owned or built is over 40 years old.
Michael
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Re: Tec HS40 Engine Internal Component Wear

Postby creia » Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:40 pm

[quote="bgsengine"
[/quote]
AH-HA! That rings a bell now - I do recall those different sized cam lobes - I only wish I happened to have the memory to recall the dimensions - I only vaguely recall (this was back in the mid-1980's ... `85 if i remember correctly.
I can't recall if we had ever gotten the right parts or if we had replaced cam and lifters as a set (back to "standard" configuration) - but I have a theory that those engines were a very limited production and intended for performance applications - seems to me having a shorter lift, longer duration on the intake would perhaps allow for a different "turbulence" and intake port opening (I cant remember - do they have different sized valves?). theoretically helping improve combustion and air flow (especially if they are built for higher RPM applications)[/quote]

Brian,
Glad I could jog your memory! :) As to your "theory" you stated above- I think you could be right on. I believe that this model HS40 was designed and built with added "performance' in mind for a mini-bike or kart application. This engine is a bit of an odd ball for yet ANOTHER reason: It has a longer-than-normal crank (3") on the PTO end. Most straight/keyed cranks are like 2.25" on the HS40, correct? This length is needed to accommodate the torque converter pulley/belt drive clutch system on this Rupp bike.(Just like the old "Climbaway", "Salsbury" , and "Comet" TC clutches used on the Tote Gotes) Maybe Tecumseh made a "limited production" run of them to be mini-bike of go-kart specific ? Even with this old worn and tired engine, it was kind of surprising the engine pulled as good as it did with my big 6'1"/ 290 lb body :oops: riding it. Yes, The valves are different size. I do not remember which one was larger- I'm sure my son Jeff will chime in and provide the answer
Michael
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Re: Tec HS40 Engine Internal Component Wear

Postby Arkie » Sat Mar 19, 2016 8:26 pm

Just some general Tecumseh info.
I typed your HS40 series Tecumseh engine into into the bing search bar and several parts placed poped up.
I did not go their and see if they actually still have any obsolete Tecumseh parts.

Some of them old Tecumseh's had points ignition and the timing is adjustable by the slotted magneto and they can easily be operated slightly out of time, especially if the timing is set just little bit too fast and it shortens the life of the rod and crank. (I've seen them little Tecumsehs that will start and run with good power but timing just little too fast (will try to kick back when cranking) When you accelerate the engine fast you can also tell (and feel and hear) the pre-ignition slight ping when too fast timing. Some of the small HP engines around 3.5 hp had a breakover year for timing degree specs difference in the service manual due to slightly different crankshaft throw. The L head Tecumseh manual is still available as a free download online and has real good specs for small Tecumseh engines, (but your engine is little different than most and not sure if your EXACT 4HP is listed in the manual)

Here is a link to download a free 3-11 hp Lhead Tecumseh service manual.
http://www.smallenginesurplus.com/servi ... erence.pdf

Their was a Tecumseh specialist that hung out on here and perr few years ago called T man. Have not heard from him in a long time?

Good luck flogging the T. They are real good powerful little engine when all is correct but can be touchy at times. ;)
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Re: Tec HS40 Engine Internal Component Wear

Postby creia » Sat Mar 19, 2016 8:54 pm

Hello Arkie,
Thank you for the reply and your interest in our project. Yes, we do have the Tecumseh L-head manual (and a few others) that have been very helpful with various specs and tolerances we needed. We have been unable, however, to find ANY specs whatsoever on the cam or valves as to lift, duration, etc. My son also has the big (thick) "Tecumseh Master Parts Manual" which has also been very helpful (it had our exact model HS40 in it). With all due and utmost respect to those that replied I am just not sure/convinced that our cam (lobes) are actually worn out, as I have nothing to compare them to. Add to that the fact that this engine seemed to run too good for them to be worn out. (It did not run "great", however it was not bad) :? It looks like this model HS40 was a very limited production run, just as Brian (and I) suspected.

Boy, that was Deja-Vu when you mentioned "T-Man"! :D I remember him very well. He helped my son and I a few years ago on some of our other 40 year old Tecumsehs. Has anybody heard anything about him?
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Re: Tec HS40 Engine Internal Component Wear

Postby bgsengine » Sat Mar 19, 2016 9:14 pm

creia wrote:
Boy, that was Deja-Vu when you mentioned "T-Man"! :D I remember him very well. He helped my son and I a few years ago on some of our other 40 year old Tecumsehs. Has anybody heard anything about him?
Michael
Not sure, I seem to recall he sort of followed Bruce's Footsteps and retired, faded out to the background shortly after we moved the gang here from perr - he does still have an account here but I forget which username it was.. as I understand it he actually used to work for Tecumseh and handled their service training.. (if my memory is correct..?) so he would be an excellent person to get that info from.. but just as easily could be suffering from CRS like me - and only vaguely recall something as rare as those Tecumsehs from 30 - 40 years ago.. But as you noted if it was running relatively well (taking into account the bearing wear and age) I really rather doubt your cam is worn (although might have to polish down the end bearing journals and have machine shop put in underside bearings/bushings in the block and sump)
How poor are they who have not patience. What wound did ever heal, but by degrees? - Iago (Othello Act II, Scene 3)
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Re: Tec HS40 Engine Internal Component Wear

Postby 51cub » Sun Mar 20, 2016 7:14 am

creia wrote:
KE4AVB wrote:
creia wrote:I realize that many reading this thread think we are absolutely nuts to expend this much time, effort and $$ into this old engine! :o (We probably are!) :oops:

Not I as I have done the same thing on some antique chainsaws for customers. I even did upgrade rebuild of a Poulan 4218AV that cost nearly as much the saw's new price of 129 USD but it was a great learning experience that I have been able to apply to other repair projects. BTW after the upgrade that saw would now cost 189 USD to buy new around here.


KE4AVB,
Thanks for sharing- While many reading our story would think we are crazy (and I do not blame them)I knew that SOME of you would "get it". 8-) My son is committed to seeing this project to completion, which includes rebuilding the worn out OEM Tec HS40 engine. $$$ Also, as you stated - "Learning experience"- Look what THAT is worth and how do you place a price cap on THAT?
We sure do appreciate the help we have received on this forum. :) As some of you may remember from my previous posts (I know that Brian does), my son loves working on the old Briggs and Tecumseh flatheads. Almost ever engine he has ever owned or built is over 40 years old.
Michael




This engine isn't old. There's nothing I like better than working on my 1917 stationary engine. If I can make the parts on my belt driven lathe, all the better
I constantly have to remind the people I work with that no matter what I work on, or when, it will benefit my employer. Might not be today, maybe not even this week, but it's going to happen. And, there's a good chance it's going to happen when they need it the most
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Re: Tec HS40 Engine Internal Component Wear

Postby KE4AVB » Sun Mar 20, 2016 7:46 am

bgsengine wrote:
creia wrote:
Boy, that was Deja-Vu when you mentioned "T-Man"! :D I remember him very well. He helped my son and I a few years ago on some of our other 40 year old Tecumsehs. Has anybody heard anything about him?
Michael
Not sure, I seem to recall he sort of followed Bruce's Footsteps and retired, faded out to the background shortly after we moved the gang here from perr - he does still have an account here but I forget which username it was.. as I understand it he actually used to work for Tecumseh and handled their service training.. (if my memory is correct..?) so he would be an excellent person to get that info from.. but just as easily could be suffering from CRS like me - and only vaguely recall something as rare as those Tecumsehs from 30 - 40 years ago.. But as you noted if it was running relatively well (taking into account the bearing wear and age) I really rather doubt your cam is worn (although might have to polish down the end bearing journals and have machine shop put in underside bearings/bushings in the block and sump)

T-Man hasn't logged in over 3 years.

ToroRedIron Lasted log in Tue Dec 24, 2013 15:00
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Re: Tec HS40 Engine Internal Component Wear

Postby creia » Sun Mar 20, 2016 9:13 am

KE4AVB wrote:
bgsengine wrote:
creia wrote:
Boy, that was Deja-Vu when you mentioned "T-Man"! :D I remember him very well. He helped my son and I a few years ago on some of our other 40 year old Tecumsehs. Has anybody heard anything about him?
Michael
Not sure, I seem to recall he sort of followed Bruce's Footsteps and retired, faded out to the background shortly after we moved the gang here from perr - he does still have an account here but I forget which username it was.. as I understand it he actually used to work for Tecumseh and handled their service training.. (if my memory is correct..?) so he would be an excellent person to get that info from.. but just as easily could be suffering from CRS like me - and only vaguely recall something as rare as those Tecumsehs from 30 - 40 years ago.. But as you noted if it was running relatively well (taking into account the bearing wear and age) I really rather doubt your cam is worn (although might have to polish down the end bearing journals and have machine shop put in underside bearings/bushings in the block and sump)

T-Man hasn't logged in over 3 years.

ToroRedIron Lasted log in Tue Dec 24, 2013 15:00


Thank you KE4AVB,
I went to the member list and have contacted him directly- hopefully he is OK (alive and well)?
Michael
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Re: Tec HS40 Engine Internal Component Wear

Postby creia » Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:25 pm

UPDATE:
I have since learned that our cam (specifically the lobes) are completely normal and not worn out. :D I had an associate send me some good photos of 2 separate cams from running HS40 engines identical to ours and the "point" of the cam lobes (duration) looks the same way ours does. That is certainly good news as far as the CAM goes, however, still a lot of work to do on this engine. :roll:
Re: PPETEN.COM member "T-Man" - My email and PM to him have gone unanswered as of this writing. He was a very valuable asset to this forum. I hope that he is OK... :?
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